Looking to get a diesel

[ford-diesel]

I'm in the quest for a diesel to replace my 2009 VWTDI. 

My wife wants:

a Ford (because it's the only dealer in town)

A minivan for ease of parking with plenty of room for shopping (she had a Dodge Caravan mini, circa 1996 and loved it)

An automatic.

 

We were about to buy a 2017/2018 SWB Transit Connect when I read about the 2019 Transit Connect standard/SWB coming standard with a diesel.

I was very happy when I read about that.

I HAD a 1978 VW Diesel Rabbit, loved it got up to 65MPG on trips running light.

I've GOT a 1988 Ford F350 diesel conversion van, a 2002 F350 dually diesel and two diesel Kubota tractors so I like the diesel powerplant..

 

I'm primarily here for hints and tips on the rest of the vehicle.

[Beta Don]

Diesel engines have a lot going for them  -  Always have.  They are especially good for constant RPM uses where multi-speed transmissions aren't needed,  like boats and trains, heavy farm machinery and especially generating electricity.  There are still many places where much of the electricity is generated using efficient single low speed diesel engines  -  Hawaii is one

 

For transportation a diesel still makes some sense for heavy long haul trucks, but even for them the new rules are making diesels more problematic and we're going to be seeing more and more battery powered trucks in the near future  -  Even for long haul trucks.  Emissions systems and regulations are making diesels less practical.  For smaller vehicles, IMO, time and emissions have pretty much passed them by.  You'll be buying yesterday's technology if you buy a 2019 van with a small diesel in it.  For an around town grocery getter, a BEV or a hybrid makes much more sense . . . . and she won't get that smelly diesel on her going to church clothes

 

The days of cheap diesel fuel behind us too  -  It will never be as cheap as gasoline again here in the USA, and as more regulations are put on it, the cost will only go up.  Justifying a diesel because it's cheaper to run than a gas or especially a hybrid vehicle is gone too.  Even a new Chevy Volt gets 40+ mpg running on gas alone and if you compare the total cost, using both gas and electric, it's much cheaper to run than any diesel

 

If she liked her mini-van, she would love a small hybrid van which can do many of her trips not burning any fuel at all.  You can forget about transmissions because electric vehicles with their high torque motors don't need to shift gears . . . . one less expensive part to fix or replace

 

I can understand coming from an old diesel rabbit and then a newer TDI why you think you want to stay a 'diesel guy' for as long as you can, but I think your past positive experiences are probably coloring your judgement going forward.  Times have changed .  Is she really (be honest now) a 'diesel gal' too . . . . or would she rather drive something more practical?

 

Don

[ford-diesel]

On 4/8/2018 at 12:27 PM, Beta Don said:

<snip>

If she liked her mini-van, she would love a small hybrid van which can do many of her trips not burning any fuel at all.  You can forget about transmissions because electric vehicles with their high torque motors don't need to shift gears . . . . one less expensive part to fix or replace

<snip>

Don

 

Perhaps you didn't read:

Quote

My wife wants:

a Ford (because it's the only dealer in town)

A minivan for ease of parking with plenty of room for shopping (she had a Dodge Caravan mini, circa 1996 and loved it)

An automatic.

 

What hybrid mini-van does Ford offer?  The C-Max with a whopping 42 cubic feet with the seats folded?  Could she load as much in the Cmax's 42 cubic feet as the TC's 77 cubic feet with seats folded?

 

What will it cost to replace the battery pack?  The pack ALONE without labor costed $800 for our 2004 Honda Civic Hybrid.  $800 buys A LOT OF diesel. 

 

Thank you for responding, it shows this forum is not dead.

Edited April 10, 2018 by ford-diesel

[mrtn]

Hybrid is a bit of an economical gimmick anyway. It's more like a feelgood product for people wanting to make a change and support the development of hybrid/electric technology. Electric is already plenty for city folk. In colder climates I see hybrids idling on gasoline all day because you can't turn the engine off because of heating needs.

 

Diesel is great for long distance commuting, not so great for city environment.

[Beta Don]

I think everyone who has never owned an EV or a hybrid is overly concerned with "what will changing the battery cost?"  It's pretty rare this ever turns out to be something you needed to worry about.  Most are warrantied for 10 years, 100,000 miles because the manufacturers know they'll very seldom have to make good on the warranty.  There is a 2012 Chevy Volt with 435,000 miles on it that the guy commutes 110 miles each way 5 days a week with and he's still going about the same number of miles twice a day on his original battery . . . . after 4,000+ recharge cycles.  His lifetime mpg is 59.25

 

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1112485_2012-chevy-volt-has-now-crossed-400000-miles-range-remains-steady

 

Hybrid is all about saving gas  -  Getting back the energy you usually waste when friction braking.  We have a 2017 Volt which gets 42 mpg when running on gas alone and that's because it also uses a bit of battery power to go up hills and then recoups that power going down the other side.  Overall lifetime 'mileage' on some hybrids us upwards of 60 mpg when the combined number is calculated  -  Higher if they're driven more in the city and less on the freeway

 

I like diesels too  -  Have a turbo Yanmar in my boat and a 3 cylinder Kubota in my garden tractor.  For me, it's all about the best power plant for the job and when you have something that makes a complicated, expensive, prone to repair automatic transmission no longer necessary, that's a BIG plus.  Our two Mitsu BEV's have the motor directly coupled to the axle with a 7 to 1 reduction (you can hold the entire trans-axle in one hand) and can go from zero to 80 mph without changing gear ratios . . . . and don't need a reverse, or a clutch

 

To each his own  -  There's something out there for everybody to love  

Don

[Jiquay]

When you consider the environmental impact of producing & recovering the Lithium batteries, the MOSFET speed controllers, the rare-earth magnet motors, plus the electric generation with a coal or CNG power plant, the environmental "advantage" of that clean tailpipe starts looking pretty sad, indeed.

 

There are ways to treat a rechargeable battery  that will make it last forever... unfortunately, 99% of us will never do that with our transportation. That guy cited above with the 400k Volt cranks it to 5% every day & charges it to 100% every night - it'll last forever. Go get the groceries twice a week & run to the cottage on weekends and you'll be changing batteries in no time. 

 

GK

[mrtn]

We’ll probably have some breakthrough battery tech in a couple of years which rids us of the environmental hit of today’s scale.

[Beta Don]

Meanwhile, Jiquay can quit worrying about the rare earth magnets  -  They are neither 'rare' nor are the materials they're made from

 

https://www.magnetsource.com/blog/rare-earth-magnets-what-isnt-in-a-name/

 

Don

[Beta Don]

4 hours ago, Jiquay said:

There are ways to treat a rechargeable battery  that will make it last forever... unfortunately, 99% of us will never do that with our transportation. That guy cited above with the 400k Volt cranks it to 5% every day & charges it to 100% every night - it'll last forever. Go get the groceries twice a week & run to the cottage on weekends and you'll be changing batteries in no time. 

Not to worry!  -  The owner of an EV can't do any harm to the battery.  The car's computer won't let you, which is why they do last so long

 

You cannot discharge it to 5% nor can you recharge it to 100%.  EV's employ a very conservative charge.discharge protocol.  If you want a Lithium battery to last 3X as long as it otherwise would, you just limit the charge voltage to 95% of absolute maximum . . . . and if you want it to last 10X as long, limit it to 90%.  The discharge voltage is limited even more than that, so no matter what the owner does, the technology is there to ensure a long life

 

Our 6 year old Mitsubishi EV's are used exactly as you mentioned.  Since we're retired and have no regular commute, we do mostly run errands with them and recharge a couple times per week  -  No battery degradation that we can measure in the first 50,000 miles.  The total maintenance over the first 6 years has been one new interior air filter replacement and one set of wipers.  Now that the tires are 6 years old, they'll need to be changed sometime this year

 

Don

[PhotoAl]

I have a 2013 Volt with over 50,000 miles.  My battery is still very good but what has been not so good for my range are the Contentinental tires.  They are eco or green but not as efficient as the OEM tires.  However the improvement in stopping and cornering capability is a good tradeoff for me.  One of my other vehicles is a Kawasaki ZX6R 636 which is a very fast Supersport motorcycle.  The Volt does not accelerate, corner or stop like it does and switching between them takes a bit of paying attention, like don't pull out and hit the accelerator expecting instant acceleration.  :-o

[ford-diesel]

19 hours ago, Beta Don said:

I think everyone who has never owned an EV or a hybrid is overly concerned with "what will changing the battery cost?"  It's pretty rare this ever turns out to be something you needed to worry about.  Most are warrantied for 10 years, 100,000 miles because the manufacturers know they'll very seldom have to make good on the warranty.  <snip>

Don

Presently OWNING a Hybrid AND having had to replace the battery at about 108K it's not rare to me.  

I've an '88 E350 Diesel maxivan, and '02 F350 CC dually and the '09 VW Jetta TDI I know the tradeoffs with diesel. 

I'm not the typical "American" consumer.  As I wrote:

On 4/7/2018 at 6:47 PM, ford-diesel said:

 

I'm primarily here for hints and tips on the rest of the vehicle.

 

Or is this forum one of those where people can't stick to a topic but must spout whatever comes to their minds?

 

I hadn't seen it necessary to put in that we "commute" between north Mississippi and Northern Virginia, about 850 miles, every few months.  A single 14 hour trip on the average.  That tends to rule out pure EV.

Edited April 11, 2018 by ford-diesel
more info

[Eddy Kilowatt]

So getting back to the 1.5 l diesel Ford says they will offer on the '19s... it's a brand new clean-sheet-of-paper design, innit?   That alone gives me pause, and I don't care which builder you're talking about.   First year of anything always has some surprises for the engineers (I should know, I are one).

 

I'm coming from a TDI and a Eurovan (not the same vehicle) so the TC diesel caught my eye too, but a lightly used 2.5 l will have more ... simplicity, cheapness, and reliability ...even if it has less technical interest.

[mrtn]

5 hours ago, Eddy Kilowatt said:

So getting back to the 1.5 l diesel Ford says they will offer on the '19s... it's a brand new clean-sheet-of-paper design, innit?   That alone gives me pause, and I don't care which builder you're talking about.   First year of anything always has some surprises for the engineers (I should know, I are one).

 

IF this is the 1.5 EURO6 emission engine we have in Europe then it's been market for a couple of years already and there really haven't been any serious complaints over it, unlike the 1.6 diesel.

[Beta Don]

What transmission(s) are offered with the diesel in Europe?  Any rumors about which one(s) will be offered in the '19 USA version?

 

Don

[mrtn]

6MT or 6-speed PowerShift dual clutch automatic. 

 

2019 will see new 8-10 speed autos.

[G B L]

EV cars would move to the mainstream very rapidly if the manufactures could move to the battery tool model with changeable batteries .  If the size and voltage were universal then EV's would become viable instantly.

mrtn did you drive the diesel version of your TC before you purchased your 1.6 Turbo?

[Jiquay]

The diesel has been around in Europe & other continents for awhile. I still wouldn't trust it on first-year North American application - too many peripherals changed & unproven in our market.

I'd love a diesel with a manual trans, but my present ride isn't going to last long enough to order a '19 and I don't want all the self-driving garbage they keep forcing on us every year.

 

GK

[mrtn]

4 hours ago, G B L said:

did you drive the diesel version of your TC before you purchased your 1.6 Turbo?

 

Nope, they didn’t have automatic so I didnt even bother.

[G B L]

 

10 minutes ago, mrtn said:

Nope, they didn’t have automatic so I didnt even bother

 

Oh well . I will be interested in how it compares to the current TC's in terms of performance .

As a side Note There are several  videos about the potential issues with Carbon deposits on the Direct injected engines, due to the oil mist  from the crank case and no fuel cleaning the intake valves.  You might want to check them out

[mrtn]

Yeah, I know.

 

But I also promised to test drive the new diesel. I’ll look into it. I’m taking my TC to service on 26th and I’m getting a loaner for the day, but it’ll be a 2.0 Mondeo, not the TC, unfortunately.

[Eddy Kilowatt]

On 4/12/2018 at 11:57 PM, mrtn said:

 

IF this is the 1.5 EURO6 emission engine we have in Europe then it's been market for a couple of years already and there really haven't been any serious complaints over it, unlike the 1.6 diesel.

 

The press reports from the Feb 2018 announcement have all referred to "a new EcoBlue 1.5 liter diesel" (some even say "all new"). 

 

Googling around a bit, a 2-liter EcoBlue was introduced in Europe in 2016.  Wikipedia says it's used in Transit, Transit Custom, and a souped-up version in the Ranger Raptor.  It meets Euro 6 and has SCR, EGR, and DPF...  or as Beta Don mentioned,  bye-bye to that appealing diesel simplicity of old.

 

The 1.5 liter EcoBlue seems to have appeared in late 2017 for the EcoSport, , and then of course the US version announced in Feb 2018.  I haven't seen its emissions hardware spelled out but presumably very similar to the 2.0.

 

So I'll amend my clean-sheet-of-paper remark to just "newly introduced", although of course all the USA emissions programming (and perhaps hardware) will be brand new.

 

I'm still making myself think of the 2.5 gas engine as the "iron block pushrod V-8" option in terms of simplicity and reliability... even though it's DOHC and four valves.  But compared to the direct injected and turbocharged EcoBoost, or the EcoBlue with all that plus an alphabet soup of emissions hardware... I guess it is.

[G B L]

Considering that 4 valve Twin cam engines have been around since the  1912 Peugeot L76 Grand Prix race car.  The Iron block push rod engine reference is good.  The easiest way to make HP is Displacement.    

Edited April 17, 2018 by G B L

[mrtn]

Turned out the Mondeo was not available for a loaner so I got the Transit Custom diesel M/T. 

 

I would shoot myself if I had to drive it daily. It's tall like a phone booth, rock hard suspension and clearly not meant for anyone over 6 feet. The pedals are too high (close to the seat) even with the driver seat raised to the highest position but then I can't see out of the window.

 

 

[Eddy Kilowatt]

Transit Custom, that's the Europe-only model that's midway in size between Transit and Transit Connect, nicht wahr?  The one a lot of us wish they'd bring over to the USA?

 

Bummer about the ergonomics.  But how's the diesel?

[mrtn]

2 hours ago, Eddy Kilowatt said:

Transit Custom, that's the Europe-only model that's midway in size between Transit and Transit Connect, nicht wahr?  The one a lot of us wish they'd bring over to the USA?

 

Bummer about the ergonomics.  But how's the diesel?

 

Correct. But it's not much smaller than the smallest full-size Transit at all. Just a different shape, more compact.

 

The diesel has some grunt tho. Much more than my Ecoboost. Would not keep up in acceleration.