Water pump added to back

[Tiller]

So I finally go my water pump installed.  Instead of a bunch of pictures, which I'm happy to provide if anyone wants them, I decided to do a movie.  One of my first tries with I-movie.

I had to split it into two movies to keep under 10 MB to load.

If you have any questions let me know.  The switch I wired the pump to I had added previously is in an earlier posting of mine.

Tiller

TC_Water_small_1.mov

Edited September 2, 2017 by Tiller

[Tiller]

Here's the second half of the video.

 TC_Water_small_2.mov

Tiller

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by Tiller

[Fifty150]

That is cool.

 

What are you doing with it?  Mobile Car Wash?

[Tiller]

Nope.  I have a wilderness search dog. During training or searches she, (and I), can come back pretty muddy and wet depending on the area and weather conditions.  I wanted a way to hose her off and rinse off some of my gear before having to load it all up in the TC for the ride home.  And sometimes, during night training and searches, search dogs have been skunked too, (so far not mine! But she has been at home! And team members have had their dogs skunked in the field).  Not pleasant to have to drive an hour, sometimes two, with a skunked up dog in the car.  So I carry a de-skunking kit in the car just in case now that I have water too.

If no one smells at the end of the day I can use it to rinse the TC off once we are off of dirt roads.

 

[Willygee]

These work well...i use it to rinse salt off in the winter(garden hose put away).

https://www.amazon.com/4-Gallon-Battery-Powered-Backpack-Sprayer/dp/B01DWCTSQE

[Fifty150]

Your emergency management team does not have mobile showers?  The fire department guys won't allow you to rinse off with the water in the fire engine?  Just what I've seen around here.  If anyone needs to wash anything off, or rinse off, like if you're covered in soot from a burning building, we just use a fire engine which is already hooked up to a hydrant, or carrying water.  

 

 

I guess in the urban environment, we worry more about things like pollutants, airborne pathogens, bodily fluids, and haz-mat chemicals.  Yeah, the water is cold.  But it's better than being covered in tear gas, pepper spray, or asbestos.    Nobody in The City worries about being skunked.  But I know some correctional guys who have had urine, vomit, blood, and feces thrown on them.

[mrtn]

[Tiller]

On 9/3/2017 at 0:31 AM, Fifty150 said:

Your emergency management team does not have mobile showers?  The fire department guys won't allow you to rinse off with the water in the fire engine?  Just what I've seen around here.  If anyone needs to wash anything off, or rinse off, like if you're covered in soot from a burning building, we just use a fire engine which is already hooked up to a hydrant, or carrying water. 

I guess in the urban environment, we worry more about things like pollutants, airborne pathogens, bodily fluids, and haz-mat chemicals.  Yeah, the water is cold.  But it's better than being covered in tear gas, pepper spray, or asbestos.    Nobody in The City worries about being skunked.  But I know some correctional guys who have had urine, vomit, blood, and feces thrown on them.

Yeah, if you're talking about a full blown FEMA style deployment.  If you are talking about injured hunter or hiker in the woods, no.  If you're talking about a kid or Alzheimer's patient then no.  You don't get those fancy toys unless it's a multiple subject incident or large scene.  I do wilderness and suburban.  No city work.  They don't have woods for the most part. 

Most searches are lucky to get a communications van or command post sent out.   If it gets newsworthy you'll get more resources.  90% of the searches we do are not newsworthy.  Many of them are suicidal persons that choose their last spot to be a national, state or local park.  The rangers find a car left at a trail head after dark.  We have to go figure out where they decided to do themselves in.  Most parks departments don't have those kind of support services to start with, including many if not most national parks.  I was just on an Alzheimers search a week ago.  One command post, a bunch of fire trucks, a couple of ambulances.  No K9 services. And definitely no mobile showers!!  LOL

I drive fire engines myself too and run with two different companies in two different states.  Trying to use the booster reel on an engine to hose a dog isn't going to work well.  The vast majority of fire departments don't have any mobile showers unless they have a serious hazmat team. And those aren't rolling out to searches. So no, our emergecny management team doesn't have one. In fact, we really don't even have emergency management teams to start with.

And if you think we get that kind of equipment at training?  That'll be the day.  We train EVERY week with the team plus 1-2 other times a week ourselves with other handlers.  It's usually during training that you'll get the muddiest and smelliest.  And usually when you find the skunks.  Never seen a dog skunked during a live search yet.  Probably because at live searches it's mostly certified and experienced dogs that are used. Ones that got skunked in training once before and know better now.  It's the pups and new dogs that usually get skunked.  No one is rolling that kind of equipment to training's.

The vast majority of the country is covered by rural and suburban volunteer fire departments, especially east of the Mississippi.  California where you are is kind of unique in its mostly fully paid services.

 

Edited September 4, 2017 by Tiller

[mrtn]

How do you cope with the depressive results of the searches? Or do the successful ones balance it out. I can't imagine.

[Tiller]

9 hours ago, mrtn said:

How do you cope with the depressive results of the searches? Or do the successful ones balance it out. I can't imagine.

I don't really know to be honest.  I love working with the dogs.  I loved fighting fire when I did that.  I loved the mental/physical challenge of vehicle accidents/entrapments.   I can't say any of the bad stuff really bothered me.  I never lost sleep over any of them.  Maybe I'm a bit of a sociopath, I don't know.  For me its more painful to see the pain of the living then the dead.  Trying to work on a child when the parents are crying next to you was the hardest thing for me.   As a parent I empathize with them more then I actually do the pain of the child.  I can usually do something for the child.  Or in a few cases, I knew it was impossible to do anything.   I can't do anything to help the parents in those moments.  That makes you feel helpless.  And I'm not a person that does well with feeling helpless.

For the searches though, you really do it to bring closure to families.  Yes, you hope to save someone and sometimes you do and that's great.  It's awesome.  But it doesn't really "balance".  

There's no reason to be bothered by the deceased person. As we say, they can't get any deader.   I've never been bothered by the gruesome side of it.  But as a parent I can't imagine not knowing what happened to my son/daughter.  Not understanding what happened at the end.  And as long as you don't have that body, the parental mind is a terrible thing and it always wants to believe that there is a chance, however tiny.  It is very difficult for these people to get through all the stages of grief like other people do, who actually have a body to grieve over.  So for me the emotional side that impacts me the most is the family left behind.  That's why we do the searches.  Fortunately, I'm usually not the family liaison.  I could never be a J. J. from Criminal Minds!  The real life people that do that have the emotional hits if you ask me.  Bodies are just bodies.  Their pain and suffering is over.

Hope that wasn't too heavy!  But honestly, thank you for asking.

 

Edited September 4, 2017 by Tiller

[Fifty150]

On 9/3/2017 at 10:00 PM, Tiller said:

 

 

California where you are is kind of unique in its mostly fully paid services.

 

For what fire fighters are called upon to do, every fire fighter should be paid.  And paid well.  And provided with every state of the art piece of equipment needed.  

Fire fighters.  Cops.  Military.  Medics.  These people are our front line.  They are the deciding factor in us being able to live in society.  You simply can't have an unsupported volunteer force.  For me, it would not be acceptable when my home burns down, and my family perishes in flames, because it would cost an extra $60 a year ($5 a month) on my property tax to have a paid fire department.  Imagine if we had an all volunteer military.  The Canadians would invade from the north, and we would be a Canadian territory.  What if the volunteer ambulance crew had no training or equipment, and the best way to get you to a hospital was by 2 bicycles towing a wheelbarrow?  

 

Free OJ!

 

[Tiller]

9 hours ago, Fifty150 said:

For what fire fighters are called upon to do, every fire fighter should be paid.  And paid well.  And provided with every state of the art piece of equipment needed. 

 

I can't say I disagree with you.  Unfortunately that is not reality in the vast majority of our country.  So you might not want to venture to far out of CA.  :-)  And if you do, stick to the bigger cities.

From wiki:  (take it for what it is).  As of 2014, there are around 1,134,400 firefighters serving in 27,198^[1] fire departments nationwide and responding to emergencies from 58,150 fire stations. Of those firefighters, 31% or 346,150 were career firefighters and 69% or 788,250 were volunteers.^[2]

Keep in mind that career firefighters are concentrated in high population area.  Career firefighters represent 15% of all departments but protect approximately two thirds of the U.S. population. Meanwhile, 85% of fire departments are volunteer or mostly volunteer and protect approximately one third of the population. 

If you are interested, you might find this link interesting: https://apps.usfa.fema.gov/registry/summary

You should note that even in California, more then half of your fire departments are considered as mostly or 100% volunteer.  My statement earlier was incorrect. But I suspect, that as in the rest of the country, the majority of your population are in the metro areas and mostly covered by paid departments.

The number of volunteers are however, drastically dropping.  There was something in the area of 1.5 million volunteers just like 10-15 yrs ago.

 

[G B L]

Nice post Tiller

[Fifty150]

In the days of yore and yesteryear, private fire companies were allowed to exist.  Why?  Out of necessity.  Essentially, fire fighting was privatized.  If you didn't pay your bill, they would stand by and watch your house burn down.  

 

On that note, police services were also privatized.  To this day, in The City and County of San Francisco, we still have private police, who wear police department uniforms, carry police radios, drive police cars, and carry guns.  But they only protect those who subscribe to their service.  So if your store is getting robbed, and you are not a subscriber, don't expect that cop to do anything for you.  

 

We do have a municipal police force, who are responsible for protecting everybody.  But the private police is allowed to exist, and carry on with the business of providing security for the privileged.  So anybody who is wealthy enough to carry an extra $150,000+ per officer a year on payroll, can have a cop in uniform standing in front of his store.  Banks subscribe.  Construction companies have to have it.  Nightclubs always pay for cops in a cruiser to sit in front of their club.  Large retail stores and grocery chains will have a uniformed cop right at their front door.  

 

Not so unique.  Even on the East Coast, you see "special police" officers in places like District of Columbia.  Railroads are private, and you see railroad cops like Southern Pacific Police & Amtrak Police.  During the industrial revolution, when we had large scale production, there were "factory police".  

Look around, and you'll see that ambulance crews are private.  Large cities like NY, LA, & SF all have fire departments with ambulances and paramedics.  In SF, medics used to be part of something called Department of Public Health.  

Maybe we should take a step back in time.  Allow volunteer fire companies to incorporate, and charge a fee.  Maybe if it isn't a subscription fee, where someone has to pay in order to receive service; there could be a service fee.  Every time you fight a fire, send a bill, and make the homeowners insurance policy pay the bill.  It makes sense to me.  I had to pay The City $5,000 for an ambulance ride.....not out of my pocket, since insurance paid for most of it after I paid the deductible.  But you guys should be allowed to set a fee schedule to offset cost.  

 

I guess it's only in large metropolitan areas where the citizenry accepts that their property is taxed for protective services.  We're also taxed for education dollars, but that's another story.  Or not.  Every homeowner pays a property tax to fund the local school district, even the ones who do not have kids in school.  Think you're not paying?  You are.  You pay rent, your landlord pays the tax with your rent.

[Tiller]

There are still some subscription style fire departments around.  Not many.  Most states have some method of providing some funding to volunteer departments. But it's usually no where near enough to cover salaries for paid departments.  And volunteer departments are now often sending bills for responses.  Especially for vehicle accident responses where the bills go to the auto insurance.  It's only a matter of a few decades until the majority of fire personnel and other first responsders are all paid.   Taxpayers will ultimately pay for it, either higher taxes, higher insurance, less service, or a combination of all three.

[Fifty150]

Firemen need a better lobbyist.  You're lacking political clout.  It seems so simple to justify full time, paid, fire fighters in the interest of national security.  You're first responders.  America needs it's heroes.  Somebody needs to lobby congress for Federal Dollars to fund local departments.  If the military can hand out surplus vehicles, guns, ammo, body armor, rocket launchers, tear gas, uniforms, and whatever to every police department across the country.  They should be able to provide surplus fire fighting apparatus to you.  Your department should get military surplus engines, turnout gear, et cetera.  And, the military should provide your training so that you guys can be called upon to respond to terrorist attacks, natural disasters, weather incidents, chemical warfare, and be incorporated into some sort of role in defense preparedness.  It's the same way that the military provides tactical training to police departments.  Imagine those little 3 man sheriff departments in the backwoods where people still make moonshine.  They don't have the budget for dental benefits, but now they have rocket launchers, flame throwers, and armored personnel carriers.  When Canada invades the USA, are we going to be helpless victims of oppression and tyranny from our French speaking neighbors to The North?  

 

You need to get the attention of your local Congressional Representative.  Have him argue that when President Trump builds his wall, the weakest link in our national defense will be unpaid, untrained, under equipped first responders.  Then set fire to his house, stand by and let it burn to the ground, in order to reiterate your point that you are unpaid, untrained, under equipped: and his family could have lived if you were paid, trained, and properly equipped.   I'd like to watch Nancy Pelosi's house burn, and be right there to tell her, "Hell No!  I'm not running into a burning building to save anything.  Especially your burning building.  I don't get paid enough to do that.  Matter of fact, I'm not getting paid at all.  I won't even save your cat stuck in a tree!"

[Tiller]

It has nothing to do with equipment.  Most places can get equipment.  We already have access to surplus stuff.  Federal fire gear is not all that available.  Most of it is used and used hard.  Not that much surplus on the firefighting side.  It rarely goes obsolete cause its siting in a depot.

The fire lobbies are still quite strong but not like they used to be.  But that's an outgrowth of the real problem, which is volunteers.  We don't have the numbers any more.  You are not an effective lobby unless you have the votes.  Plus, there are two lobbying interests now, the paid fire unions and the volunteer fire services.  Yes we agree on a lot and lobby together a lot.  But on personnel issues we differ a lot.  The unions want growth and more jobs, i.e. less volunteers.  So we do split on some things.

And of course the politicians want to walk that line between supporting the unions, volunteers and increasing paid jobs against raising taxes.  So nothing will ever happen fast.

Volunteers are dying out and America better get ready for it. There are an awful lot of volunteers in Houston, Florida and serving at the numerous forest fires in the west.  Keep in mind that while deployed, the forest fighting teams get paid.  So do FEMA teams.  But back home, many of these folks are volunteers that have trained in forest fire fighting.  States in the east rotate teams to the west, usually for 2 week intervals.  They get paid when deployed. Not back home.  Without volunteers, many of those state teams are finding it harder and harder to have people to fill that "buffer" of Wildland teams.  Paid departments and state forestry departments can only provide so many people to go out on deployment on those teams to the west.   Those paid people have to be backfilled with part-timers or overtime.  Your local service levels can be impacted.  As volunteers decrease, it will fall more on those paid people.  Taxpayers and state officials are only going to let that assistance rise to a certain level before limiting it or wanting more money to send it.

California is supplemented every year with out of state wildland fire fighting teams.  Pennsylvania, Delaware, New Jersey, New York,  we've all sent teams to CA and other western states. That will eventually dry up to a set level as our volunteers drop off in favor of paid departments.  Wildland firefighting costs will go up drastically in the years to come as local paid departments demand more $$$ to send their staff out west.

The same applies to hurricane and other disaster responses.  Most members of the FEMA teams are made up of paid personnel from career fire departments.  That number will continue to increase. And that's fine.  But the costs of these teams will continue to rise.

I don't see an end or fix to this.  Eventually there will be almost no volunteers.  The training requirements have become tremendous for many departments.  The time and effort to maintain equipment increases every year, often due to liability, new regulations, and insurance requirements that keep getting pushed on departments.  At the same time, demographics have shifted. People no longer have time to volunteer while working 40-60 hrs a week, often in two-income families that require child-care and household chores to be more evenly split.  We've raised kids that don't have the same volunteer spirit or desire, (with exceptions of course).  There's a marked shift with the younger generation to renting and not buying homes.  With out home ownership they are less connected to their town. More mobile and likely to relocate.  Less inclined to get involved in the long term commitments required to get trained and stay trained.  And then a move to a new state often invalidates a lots of your certifications and requires you to retest and recertify.

Things they are a changing..

[Fifty150]

Interesting viewpoints from the unions and volunteers perspectives.  I guess it's not like the police unions.  Sure, volunteer all you want.  Become an auxiliary officer.  Become a reserve officer.  There is absolutely no threat to police officers losing their jobs to volunteers.  And the fact that more volunteers are actually riding in the car with a full time officer, it only points to the fact that there are not enough officers, and hiring needs to be increased.  Firefighter unions can't see that?  All of the volunteers justify why the fire department needs to increase the payroll.  In order to recruit and retain good people, doing exemplary work, the volunteers need to be converted to full time paid firefighters.  That is the only way to keep them.  It's in the interest of everyone's safety, to keep you doing what you're doing, and compensate you for it.  

 

I wonder if inmate firefighters are compensated in any way for their service.  I know.  They're criminals and serving time.  But the fact that they're willing to put their lives on the line in our time of need, there should be compensation of some form.  

 

I've always thought that inmates should be allowed to pay their debt to society via public or military support service.  If a guy gets a 10 year sentence for a nonviolent offense, and he is willing to go to Afghanistan, let him.  Even if you don't give him a gun, there is plenty of need over there for logistics support, mechanics, labor, service, et cetera.  They should bring volunteer inmate crews to forward operating bases.  We need barbers, cooks, laundry, warehousing, truck drivers operating room techs.......there must be 25 soldiers doing other things, to every 1 soldier with a gun fighting.  Inmates could constructively learn job skills and repay their debt to society.  What is the chance of escape?  What would an inmate do?  Run away into the hills of Afghanistan?  About the same risk as an inmate firefighter running away into the hills that are on fire.

[Tiller]

Some interesting ideas.  Not opposed to some type CCC style service for non-violent offenders.

 

[windguy]

@Tiller - job well done on adding this useful amenity to your TC. Thanks for sharing with some cool videos.

Did you consider using a pistol grip type sprayer instead?

You mentioned the pump is rated at 3g/min. If you were to use a gentle spray level, what would you guess is the water usage rate?

I've had thoughts of adding something like this to my TC since I rinse off at the beach after every surf session. I now fill an old 1gal apple juice bottle that has a nice handle with hot water at home. I like the warm water rinse  in the winter months.  I've also considered getting a portable shower unit so water can be heated. Something like the link below:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B011TRLVP0/ref=asc_df_B011TRLVP05168442/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=394997&creativeASIN=B011TRLVP0&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198093463189&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8903817247903966003&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031174&hvtargid=pla-350596519425

I like the simplicity of your system but my van is currently stuffed with gear so I'd have to figure out where to mount this pump system if I were to go this route.

Could you please share some info on the pump you selected? Is it the one in the link below? (I turned the pic around to see the label easier)

https://www.amazon.com/SHURflo-4008-101-E65-Revolution-Water-Pump/dp/B002XM5G70

Did you do any special wiring to power this with a fuse or just tap a 12VDC line available?

I like the panel switch you mounted. Very slick. What model is that and what else does it control?

Many thanks!

 

Edited September 14, 2017 by windguy

[Tiller]

The one I have was in stock at Eastern Marine. I'm not far from there.  But I believe it is discontinued.  But it is now replaced I believe with this one.

 

http://shurflo.com/marine-products/fresh-water-pumps/aqua-king-ii-fresh-water-pumps/164-aqua-king-ii-standard-fresh-water-pump-12-vdc-23-0-gpm

 

The "E" model number (aftermarket), comes with barb fittings (seen in the pump pic you posted), which make it easier to hook up.   You won't find white arrows on any of them like in the pic.  I used white-out to highlight water direction arrows molded in the plastic.

 

You need to make sure whatever pump you get has an internal bypass. Otherwise at the low volume flow with the mini-reel it constantly shuts on and off.  This one won't until you get to really ridiculous low water flow.  I didn't pick a pistol grip style as I wanted to minimize it much as possible.  The standard home pistol grip one I tried, (from my garden hose), really didn't flow right.  I think it's because of the low volume due to the hose reel diameter going into a nozzle meant for a 3/4" hose.  You get a pretty good pressure drop.  The "Little Big Shot" nozzle is available at Home Depot or Walmart.

 

The 5 gallon collapsible container I use takes about 4-5 min to be emptied if I flow it at the maximum it can go.   Plenty of water to bath a dog or two in an emergency.

It was funny cause last Sunday was the first time at training after installing this.  And we had a young pup find something gross to roll in.  We were able to bathe her on site and the handler didn't have to ride an hour in her car with a smelly dog.

 

This is the hose reel I used:  http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200658814_200658814

 

The wiring was straight forward.  A red and a black.  I ran the red to a switch on my panel.  The black to ground.  You can see the switch panel here on page 2.  The other switches are explained there as well. 

Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

Tiller

Edited September 16, 2017 by Tiller

[windguy]

@tiller - thanks for taking the time to provide more detail about your rinse station. I missed your other build thread but will check that out. Appreciate the link.

 

You've really inspired me to create some type of shower system. Online I've checked out some ready made options and they all seem to have design/reliability issues (not sustained water pressure, leaking water, pumps and parts breaking). Ideally for me I'd like to have a self contained modular system that I can easily be removed from the van but I'm not adverse to mounting the pump somewhere and hard wiring it. Perhaps a milk crate that has the pump mounted on an inside wall, coiled hose and sprayer setup storage space and room for the water jug (1 or 2 gallon). The pump would get power plugging into the 12VDC Aux Power Point in the back. The TC User's Manual specs the power point at 12VDC - 20amps max or <180watts. The water pump like yours at 7.5amps and a few others I've seen at 4-7amps range seem light duty enough for plugging into this port. I just have some hesitation that the port can actually handle that load based on the spec. Last thing I want to do is smoke the wiring harness. My pump usage will be short bursts so it shouldn't be working too hard. Don't mean to hijack your thread but figured it's all the same subject matter. Thanks!

 

 

[Tiller]

I test ran my pump on the 12V AUX to test the fittings.  Ran it for a bit on it.  You shouldn't have any problem with it.

 

I see in your van, panels on the inside of your barn doors.  How much space is behind them?  The dimensions on the pump are 8.5 x 4.9 x 4.5.  So you only need 5".  Even if it extends out an inch or two, you can probably fashion a guard around it.  For a tank, get a spare tire bracket for the exterior door and mount a 2 gallon jerry can on it.

If you really want to go cheap and try something different, you can try PVC pipe.  A 4" PVC pipe, will hold approximately .65 gallons for each foot.  Mount a 5 foot section of pipe to your roof rack and you have about 3.25 gallons.  That's about 25 pounds of weight to the rack. I don't know what the limit is on your vehicle.  Being on the roof it will probably always be heated!

 

I would also make sure you either drive with it full or empty.  If it's not full, the movement of the water is likely to rip off your rack with the constant starting and stopping of the vehicle.  Also, you can use smaller pipe as well.  Like two 5' sections of 2" one on each side of the rack.  

 

Looking at your van, it might be very easy to slide in a 6' section of 4" pipe on the floor between your boards and the the plastic tubs.  That would hold about 3.9 gallons of water for you and could be easily removed once you're home.  You'd just have to glue up both ends and drill it out to attach the proper fitting for a connector on top at one end.  You'll also need a small vent tube for it as well to let air in.  The vent tube needs to be on top of the pipe when in use.  Probably opposite the main connector on the pipe.

 

Tiller

Edited September 17, 2017 by Tiller

[Tiller]

You could also try finding a spot for one of these in your van! 

2.5 Gallons.  You pressurize it with air.  The pressure is pretty good!  $80.00

 

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/buckeye-2-5-gallon-water-class-a-fire-extinguisher-rechargeable-untagged-ul-rating-2-a/47250000.html?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=CjwKCAjwl_PNBRBcEiwA4pplRd2ZczebTiu2azcHusNncBmpr5xOTw3JkMcGBcZv3VxHdrM3pdzXrhoCf_sQAvD_BwE

 

 

[windguy]

@tiller - thanks for the other ideas. Interesting thoughts.

 

I usually don't have my roof racks mounted for day-to-day beach use, only for special road trips when I need more cargo space. Mounting a tube won't work for me, but I have seen youtube videos of others making similar shower systems like this and it's very creative. My van is even fuller these days as I've added a 3rd windsurfing board that's a bit wider. Along with a surf board stuffed diagonally the van is packed. I really need to open up the area below the deck where the rear seats would normally be to capture more storage space. I said I'd do that last winter but never got to it. Perhaps this coming winter I'll dive into that project.

 

Great to know that you ran your water pump off the aux power port. Many thanks for sharing that. For prototyping this will be very helpful to get me started. Appreciate your help.