Phantom Transmission Issue Gone Away??

[i86hotdogs]

Hey all, let me fill you in on my last 6 months dealing with transmission issues with my 2016 TC XL Cargo LWB.

 

Background: Besides the van being my daily driver, I also have raced the van on both track days and RallyCross. Safe to say I put the van through heavy use.

 

August 2021-I decided to do a traditional DnF (drain & fill) ahead of a long road trip for a RallyCross weekend. This was the first time I did this service, and I do not know if it was ever done prior to me owning the vehicle (I bought the van with 102,000 miles, and performed the service at 150,000 miles). Drained about 4 qts in to a bucket. Fluid was black, but no signs of debris in the fluid. Filled the trans with 4 qts and drove it for about 5 minutes to get it up to temp. I then followed the procedure to check the fluid level: put the van in to all the available gears (P, N, R, D, and S) for about 10 seconds each, open the plug on the side of the transaxle and topped off fluid until it started coming out of the hole. Vehicle drove fine all month leading to the trip in September. 

 

September 2021-Drove about 7 hours to the RallyCross event with no issues. I raced all day Saturday with no issues all day (was .2 seconds behind the leader!). Upon driving to my hotel, I noticed the transmission didn't want to ship up or down. It felt like I was in manual mode, and was hanging the revs high. The "Service Transmission Now" message came on my dash a few minutes later. I pulled in to a parking lot to check around. Checked all connectors and cleaned off whatever dirt or dust I found. Opened the drain plug on the side of the transaxle and didn't see any fluid come out, but was able to see the fluid with a flashlight. I pulled a "Transmission solenoid 1-2" code using my cheap OBD2 dongle. I let it sit for about 30 minutes while I searched the internet for answers. I started the van and all the messages disappeared. No service transmission light, no codes from the dongle. I slowly drove around the parking lot and didn't experience the issues I had previously. I carefully drove it back to the hotel for the night. The next morning, I decided not to participate in day 2 of the races out of precaution. I started the van and slowly drove it around the parking lot. No issues came up. No lights, no codes, no nothing. I decided to head back home. Not a single issue in the 7hr drive home. I took an extended break about halfway through as well. 

 

October 2021-Since that event, I experienced zero issues with the transmission. I had not taken a long distance trip, only commuting to work daily. I had to drive 3 hours north to pick up a car part (not for the van). About 1 hour in to the drive, I get the "Service Transmission" message on the highway. I take the next exit and notice the transmission feels like it is stuck in high gear. I shut the van off and sit for 30 minutes like before. OBD2 dongle pulls the same solenoid 1-2 code. I start the van up after 30 minutes and everything disappears like before. I decide to turn back home and the drive home is uneventful. Out of precaution, I check the fluid level again. Fluid level is good. A week later I do another DnF. Same procedure as last time, 4 qts out;4qts in. Road test and checked the level: all good.

 

November 2021-regular daily commuting; no issues

 

December 2021-Have to drive 3hrs north for my weddings. About 1 hour in the drive, the same messages come up: Service Transmission. This time, though, I start seeing other messages: Hill-Assist disabled, Blinking Check Engine Light, Traction Control Light turns on. I take the nearest exit and stop at an intersection. The van suddenly shuts off, and wont start again. I notice there is no designation on what gear its in with the key on/engine off. My assumption is the van doesn't know what gear it's in, so it won't start out of safety. I get it towed to the nearest shop. Few days later, shop tells me they pulled two codes: transmission temperature voltage high and transmission temperature voltage low. Shop claims they checked the fluid level and said it was ok. They also said they had no issue starting the van. They quote me for either a rebuild or a full transmission swap. $1,200 and $3,400 respectively. I decide against it. I pick up the van and carefully drive it back from the shop (1 hour away from home), I can feel the transmission struggle a bit, but I took side roads and hardly went over 50MPH. I took it to a local shop where they basically said the same thing. I decide to hold off on service. The van still gets me to work and back, I just can't take it on long trips. 

 

January to February 2022-regular daily commuting with no issues. 

 

March 2022- I decide to do another DnF. I open the drain plug and end up draining nearly 8quarts of fluid. I have no idea where this extra 4qts came from?! I do the regular drive test and level check; everything checks out. Later in the month, I have to make another 3hr road trip. I make the trip with absolutely no problems. No codes, no drivability issues.

 

So now that you're all caught up, where the heck did that extra fluid come from?! If I had to guess, all of my transmission problems derived from the excess fluid in the transaxle. I simply do not know where it came from, though. I understand the entire transmission holds about 9qts, and a good chunk of that stays in the torque converter. But why would the first two DnF's only drain 4 qts and the third dumps out 8? The van runs like new now. And I plan on doing a DnF every other oil change from now on. 

[Don Ridley]

I don't know where the extra 4 quarts of fluid came from. If it had been over filled, why didn't the previous drain fix it?

 

You should try using Forscan Lite on your smartphone or Forscan on a PC. It will read DTCs and provide a means to troubleshoot sensors, valves etc.. You will need to buy a converter that plugs into the OBDII port but this costs less than 4 qts of tranny fluid.

 

I have seen the Hill Assist warning appear when there was a communication fault on the network. There may be something similar going in in your TC since many faults appeared at once. Maybe this is why a power cycle temporarily fixed the problem. I have used Forscan on my phone to immediately check and diagnose errors out on the road (the phone app can read codes and parameters and reset DTCs).

[Willygee]

Interesting post...i shall stay tuned.

[G B L]

Very interesting,  After the 8 qt drain how many qts did it take to refill.  Overfilling will definitely cause  issues.

[i86hotdogs]

On 4/3/2022 at 9:38 AM, G B L said:

Very interesting,  After the 8 qt drain how many qts did it take to refill.  Overfilling will definitely cause  issues.

After i drained the 8qts, I filled it with just 4. Drove it for a few minutes to get the trans to temp. Then did the fluid level check procedure (shift the trans to all the gears for 10 seconds each, open drain hole on side of transaxle, add fluid until it starts coming out of said hole). Ended up being about 4.25 qts

[i86hotdogs]

On 4/1/2022 at 1:02 PM, Don Ridley said:

You should try using Forscan Lite on your smartphone or Forscan on a PC.

I just learned Forscan is suspending smartphone distribution due to the conflict in Ukraine. Looks like I gotta get the PC version

[Fifty150]

It may or may not help.  I would do the complete transmission service.  A triple drain and fill.  That would accomplish 2 things.  1, you would know that you now have clean fluid, not partially diluted dirty fluid.  2, with every drain, you will know that 4 quarts of fluid is coming out, and that you are replacing it with 4 quarts.  And it will also let you know that there's something else going on, if you just added 4 quarts of fluid, drove it around, and then 8 quarts of fluid comes out when you drain it again.   Makes you wonder if some tech at one of those shops decided to pour in 4 quarts, maybe accidentally, and not say anything about it.  Then the service writer at the shop just decided to tell you that the fluid was fine, because they were too lazy to drain it out and fill it again.

 

On 4/4/2022 at 7:00 AM, i86hotdogs said:

Ended up being about 4.25 qts

 

it may, or may not, make a difference.  But the fill specification is 4 liters.  Not quarts.  That's actually 4.227 quarts.  So that's 4 quart bottles, or 1 gallon container, plus 7.560658 ounces.  

 

As I recall, I bought 3 gallons of fluid, plus 1 quart.  On the first 2 drain and fills, I only filled with 1 gallon.  I figured it wouldn't matter, since I was only using it to dilute dirty fluid, not driving 100,000 miles with less fluid than specified.  Then on the third fill, I used a measuring cup to add the correct amount - or as close to the correct amount as I could possibly get within an ounce or two.

[gaf]

2017 Transit Connect XLT 2.5L w/115,000 and I'm having similar issues.

 

Was climbing a long mountain stretch of freeway when the car would not drop out of 5th gear. Moment later I got alert TRANSMISSION FAULT SERVICE NOW. I turned it around and took it home. This was a few days ago; the car shifts perfectly in and around town, even up short steep hills.

I am going to check for an overfilled trans first thing. Thank you for posting your account of transmission issues, glad that you found simple resolution.

[G B L]

On 4/4/2022 at 10:00 AM, i86hotdogs said:

Ended up being about 4.25 qts

What was the color of the fluid that came out,

I am baffled as to the extra fluid came from . the plot thickens.

[Fifty150]

It would be strange if all that fluid that was suppose to be in the transmission torque converter somehow wound up in the sump.

 

More likely scenario is that someone else poured in 4 quarts.  I could imagine that a tech who didn't know what he was doing, added 4 quarts.  Then the shop manager decided not to do anything or say anything about it.  Because it would cost them more money to drain out 8 quarts, and refill with another 4 quarts.  Probably one of the two shops in December 2021.

[i86hotdogs]

On 4/8/2022 at 9:33 PM, G B L said:

What was the color of the fluid that came out,

I am baffled as to the extra fluid came from . the plot thickens.

A regular black color. I know it doesn't take long to darken the color of this trans fluid thanks to the composition of the clutches. No sparkly metal debris or anything were in any of the drained fluid.

[i86hotdogs]

I'm leaning on the root cause of an overfill somewhere. It's the only thing that makes sense seeing that once the overfill condition was eliminated, the problem seemed to disappear. Now, we don't know how damaging that overfill was. Like I said, I've taken the van on a couple of longer road trips since the last drain n fill, and no issues came up. I decided to retire the van from racing as well (bought a Mustang last weekend). So that factor is also eliminated. It's now my daily driver and road trip vehicle. I will continue to perform the DnF procedure every 2-3 oil changes, but I am optimistic that I have another million miles in this van (exaggerating of course)

[G B L]

If you use the Triax fluid the color won't darken like the motor-craft or Valvoline  fluid.

[Fifty150]

On 4/11/2022 at 4:53 AM, i86hotdogs said:

but I am optimistic that I have another million miles in this van

 

Years ago, I saw a story on television, about this guy who had the same car for decades.  It wasn't any kind of special car.  It was some kind of GM.  He bought spare parts like water pumps, alternators, starters - from some auto parts chain with a "lifetime warranty".  He would go back, and a store manager would have to give him another auto part.  Eventually, a manager would not give him a replacement.  He took it up the food chain.  They told him that the store managers made the onsite decisions when it came to replacing items under warranty.  He wasn't satisfied.  He hired an attorney.  He received some sort of settlement.  And he got on TV.  I remember the TV host interviewer asking him if he was abusing the store policy.  After all, he paid for 1 auto part, and got 4, 5, or 6 replacements, over a quarter of a century.  His answer was that the store was abusing the customer by not honoring their warranty.

 

You could try doing the same.  Next time that you have to replace a fuel pump, or whatever, see if there is a warranty.  Ultimately, most parts are replaceable.  You just need to drive 250,000 miles a year for the next 4 years.

 

 

 

 

[Fifty150]

4 hours ago, G B L said:

If you use the Triax fluid the color won't darken like the motor-craft or Valvoline  fluid.

 

 

Triax now has a product labeled specifically for low viscosity.  I would try it if the price goes down.  

 

[Willygee]

Designed, recommended not the same as licensed and approved by the OEM's correct?

[Fifty150]

3 hours ago, Willygee said:

Designed, recommended not the same as licensed and approved by the OEM's correct?

 

Mercon LV is specification.  Motorcraft, a brand of automotive parts, has a low viscosity, automatic transmission fluid, which meets the Mercon LV specification.  It is also licensed by Ford.  

 

 

It's all in the wording.  

 

Approved?  Recommended?  By who?  That's what you have to question.

 

There have been marketing and sponsorship agreements.  My fuel cap says BP.  I would be screwed if I could only use BP gas.  There are no BP stations in my area.  Certain owners manuals were printed, stating that Ford recommends Castrol.  In some markets, there is a Ford logo on bottles of Castrol.  I wonder how many people question if that Castrol bottle of Ford oil can go into a Toyota.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When you read the label on a bottle of ATF, you have to keep in mind that "recommended for" is marketing terminology.  And unless it specifically says, "recommended by Ford", it is not recommended by Ford.  On a bottle of Valvoline, where it says "recommended for"; it's Valvoline recommending that you use it.  

 

Valvoline is a product I use.  It is the transmission fluid in my Transit Connect.  It is a good example, of a bad example.  Valvoline's literature clearly states:

 

 

You can find this at:  https://sharena21.springcm.com/Public/Document/18452/9e447451-fe75-e711-9c10-ac162d889bd3/5ca3517a-e29c-e711-9c10-ac162d889bd3

 

 

 

 

If you only want to use the actual factory fill fluid, you will buy Mercon LV.  If you want a fluid to specification, you will buy a fluid of any brand, which meets the specification, and is licensed.  Some fluids may claim to meet specification, but does not label as a licensed product.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Fifty150

[G B L]

11 hours ago, Willygee said:

Designed, recommended not the same as licensed and approved by the OEM's correct?

What I can speak to is the quality of the fluid was better at the 25000 mile drain interval I used.  The Mercon Lv and the Valvoline were definitely

showing much more heat stress than the Triax.