An Alarming Trend?

[zepper]

I just took a peek at autotrader.com as I am still looking for my transit and there were kind of a lot of used transits with less than 5,000 miles on them. A little alarming. What gives? Buyers remorse??

Anybody out there over 5,000 miles and still loving theirs?

[madlock]

I just took a peek at autotrader.com as I am still looking for my transit and there were kind of a lot of used transits with less than 5,000 miles on them. A little alarming. What gives? Buyers remorse??

Anybody out there over 5,000 miles and still loving theirs?

It's difficult to know. One of the most compelling reasons to buy was the ARRA tax incentive that literally allowed certain buyers to write-off the entire vehicle depreciation in year 1. That means, I bought mine in November, and I get about 1/2 of it paid back to me in April. I'm sure a great many people bought them and then are now selling them after pocketing the tax incentive.

One thing's certain; resale values are NOT impressive, something that's very uncommon for a new vehicle that hasn't been highly incentivized. With about 180 days' worth of TC's on dealer lots, I sense some deep discounting to make room for the 2011's once they arrive.

This marketplace must be playing with Ford and TC. It's universally praised, unique in its class, yet conditions seem to be such that early adopters are hard to come by.

[isellford]

I am ready to turn 15,000 miles on my TC and have had no issues with it at all.

[zepper]

Cool, thats reassuring. Makes good sense with the tax credit. Buy it for $21000 Get $10,000 back and sell it for $18,000, is that right?

Still haven't seen any used silver ones!!

[anajay78]

I just took a peek at autotrader.com as I am still looking for my transit and there were kind of a lot of used transits with less than 5,000 miles on them. A little alarming. What gives? Buyers remorse??

Anybody out there over 5,000 miles and still loving theirs?

I would not read to much into it. Go with your gut, if you like the Transit and it fits your needs then purchase a used or new one. Sometimes it takes awhile for a product to catch on here in the States, I believe Ford has made a bold and smart move in bringing the Transit Connect Stateside. I was in Vegas a couple of weeks ago and they were being used as Taxis.

We just purchased one for the Company and although we have yet to put many miles on it, initial impressions are positive. Love the way it handles, the 2.0L is small but the vehicle weighs less then 3000 pounds so who cares.

[bilgewiper]

I've got 20,000 miles on mine and have no buyer remorse. Must of been that ARRA tax incentive that has so many on used market. I bought mine with the "cash for clunkers" tax wasting incentive.

[humitex]

It's difficult to know. One of the most compelling reasons to buy was the ARRA tax incentive that literally allowed certain buyers to write-off the entire vehicle depreciation in year 1. That means, I bought mine in November, and I get about 1/2 of it paid back to me in April. I'm sure a great many people bought them and then are now selling them after pocketing the tax incentive.

One thing's certain; resale values are NOT impressive, something that's very uncommon for a new vehicle that hasn't been highly incentivized. With about 180 days' worth of TC's on dealer lots, I sense some deep discounting to make room for the 2011's once they arrive.

This marketplace must be playing with Ford and TC. It's universally praised, unique in its class, yet conditions seem to be such that early adopters are hard to come by.

From what I've read....I think you get credit for sales tax if you're in a state that collects sales tax...if not, customers will be able to deduct other types of taxes. Not sure if getting 1/2 of your purchase price back is accurate...would be nice. If so, please direct us to the site that explains the process.

Thanks!

[humitex]

I am ready to turn 15,000 miles on my TC and have had no issues with it at all.

Just hit 5000 on mine....no complaints other then excessive road and wind noise. I've noticed that much of the wind noise is coming from the passenger side window toward the front.

My biggest compliant right now is the rubber loom between the rear door and the main body. They are always getting pinched....eventually they will crack or the washer fluid will cease to flow. Did they fire the guys in quality control? or did they not have customer input on design as does Toyota?

We also own a 2006 Toyota Sienna van..LOVE IT...we really want the new 2011 Sienna van...talk about reading the minds of consumers. They have everything in there that makes sense to the average family. (sad to hear about the issues pertaining to Toyota, but I will still remain a loyal customer...75% of the vehicle is made here in America)

sorry to rant...but yes, I still enjoy and are happy with my TC.

JK

[zepper]

Cool I am glad that most people are loving them. Its reassuring--thank you for sharing.

[madlock]

We also own a 2006 Toyota Sienna van..LOVE IT...we really want the new 2011 Sienna van...talk about reading the minds of consumers. They have everything in there that makes sense to the average family. (sad to hear about the issues pertaining to Toyota, but I will still remain a loyal customer...75% of the vehicle is made here in America)

sorry to rant...but yes, I still enjoy and are happy with my TC.

JK

Well, let's hope the new features Toyota includes for 2011 include reliable accelerator and braking and a newfound-candor for addressing potential safety matters and resisting the urge to suppress them within a super-secret vault somewhere in Toyota City. I'm personally looking forward to a going forward marketplace in which Toyota will likely have to compete amid a more "eyes open" public rather than historical lore extolling Toyota vehicles as devices based upon the mystical principles of quicksilver inspired by the philosopher's stone.

It's a whole new world out there; and few phenomenon have illustrated this fact better than the decline in value Toyota has delivered to customers in each passing year's Camry as Fusion has improved to the point of surpassing it in virtually every respect. When Fiesta arrives this year and European Focus arrives in 2011, Toyota had better hope it budgeted sufficient development capital for its own products as far back as 2008 to remain competitive.

Hopefully for the sake of Ford, it can begin making more hay out of marketing its own virtues and the fact that virtually any American brand, vehicle regardless of where it's made, contributes several times the amount to America's economy than a foreign-brand vehicle assembled here.

[MINICooperS]

I'm still kicking the tires myself, on a new one. I guess the TC is only worth what people are willing to pay at the moment. Since I won't be using it in a business and no tax write-off, I would have to get the best deal possible. After talking to several dealers it appears Ford is handcuffing them on the price point. The big question is, will the TC go the way of the PT Cruiser, $20K when it first came out and then down to $12K a few years later? After all it was just a rebodied Neon. I'm still on the fench but is this a $24K vehicle out-the-door? One side note I thought was humorous or pathetic, I went into a dealership and the first salesman that approached me hadn't even heard of them. The fleet manager schooled him real quickly, as they had 4 sitting there. Anyone willing to offer up what they paid out-the-door and the sticker price, chime in.

Edited March 10, 2010 by MINICooperS

[kmoilan1]

Including tax 24109.75.

That included employee price. No tax write-off other than the government sales tax return.

I am happy with my purchase and as a stock holder I am glad that Ford is holding the line on pricing with little or no incentives. We have come to expect Ford, GM, and Chrysler to offer big incentives based on past history but now they are working to sell/market with a pull strategy instead of a push strategy. Because the TC is marketed as a commercial vehicle I believe Ford can sit on these vehicles without panicking. As the customer discovers the need, many of the vehicles are a clean slate ready to be fitted to their specific requirements. The current owners will help to make or break this vehicle. I have had a lot of questions, can-I-look-insides, and I want one comments. The fact that my purchase is primarily for personal use has cleared up , "I thought you had to be a business or contractor to get one..." for a few of those interested. Maybe they will help spread the word.

You have been kicking the tires long enough. You could wait till the end of the model year for possible clearance incentives but that means 4-6 months of waiting and maybe not getting it optioned to your needs.

So far my TC has lived up to my expectations.

[King Neptune]

Amen!

U.S. automakers dug themselves into a hole while the foreign competition was digging themselves out. I owned a number of Jap and German vehicles during the seventies and eighties. They were worse then what the US automakers were turning out. They were rust-buckets, repair part prices were sky-high, sounded as solid as a tin can when the door was closed, vibration was horrible, as was wind noise. They sold because the were cheap and got great gas mileage, not because they didn't break......they did. Having said that they did make huge strides in the past 20 years. I regret ever buying Jap, German and even Italian made vehicles.

Well, let's hope the new features Toyota includes for 2011 include reliable accelerator and braking and a newfound-candor for addressing potential safety matters and resisting the urge to suppress them within a super-secret vault somewhere in Toyota City. I'm personally looking forward to a going forward marketplace in which Toyota will likely have to compete amid a more "eyes open" public rather than historical lore extolling Toyota vehicles as devices based upon the mystical principles of quicksilver inspired by the philosopher's stone.

It's a whole new world out there; and few phenomenon have illustrated this fact better than the decline in value Toyota has delivered to customers in each passing year's Camry as Fusion has improved to the point of surpassing it in virtually every respect. When Fiesta arrives this year and European Focus arrives in 2011, Toyota had better hope it budgeted sufficient development capital for its own products as far back as 2008 to remain competitive.

Hopefully for the sake of Ford, it can begin making more hay out of marketing its own virtues and the fact that virtually any American brand, vehicle regardless of where it's made, contributes several times the amount to America's economy than a foreign-brand vehicle assembled here.

[MINICooperS]

. . . . . . Including tax 24109.75

Thanks for the input. Was that with all taxes AND fees? Could you post your model and option codes, i.e. the ones on the sticker?

[madlock]

. . . . . . Including tax 24109.75

Thanks for the input. Was that with all taxes AND fees? Could you post your model and option codes, i.e. the ones on the sticker?

Actually, that's a pretty standard price for a reasonably-equipped XLT of any variety presuming a garden variety sales tax rate. My first one stickered well OVER $25K by virtue of having been a Wagon and the FWS computer; and even then, the gross vehicle price was in the $23's when bought below invoice.

Many dealers caught long are throwing-in part or all of their holldback to get inventories to a more reasonable level. But even with so many available, many dealers flocked to a relatively limited number of option configurations hyped to them at the ordering stage, so the oversupply doesn't necessarily translate int exceptional variety.

[MINICooperS]

Actually, that's a pretty standard price for a reasonably-equipped XLT of any variety presuming a garden variety sales tax rate. My first one stickered well OVER $25K by virtue of having been a Wagon and the FWS computer; and even then, the gross vehicle price was in the $23's when bought below invoice.

Many dealers caught long are throwing-in part or all of their holldback to get inventories to a more reasonable level. But even with so many available, many dealers flocked to a relatively limited number of option configurations hyped to them at the ordering stage, so the oversupply doesn't necessarily translate int exceptional variety.

The unit I was looking at first:

2010 XL Cargo, Silver Exterior 300A $21035.00

50 State Emissions (no charge)

Shipping $695.00

Total Sticker: $21730.00

Build Date: 09-22-09

Best the dealer would do, $22038.17 out-the-door

I turned it down.

Edited March 13, 2010 by MINICooperS

[madlock]

The unit I was looking at first:

2010 XL Cargo, Silver Exterior 300A $21035.00

50 State Emissions (no charge)

Shipping $695.00

Total Sticker: $21730.00

Build Date: 09-22-09

Best the dealer would do, $22038.17 out-the-door

I turned it down.

FYI, here is the invoice on a similar unit with RSC only.

Edited March 12, 2010 by madlock

[madlock]

While you may not have been offered the best deal ever, the dealer's $22,038 price certainly wasn't unreasonable. Because California taxes can vary from one county and town to another, it's almost impossible to be exact; but basing registration and sales tax fees upon a new vehicle registered in Aliso Viejo in Orange County and presuming you'd be entitled to a $500 rebate and nothing more, the dealer seems to have offered the car to you at "dealer invoice". The calculations reconcile almost to the dollar.

"Out the door" offers (made either way) are really counterproductive because they obfuscate both the legitimately variable costs that are purchase price-dependent (and especially in California with variable sales/use tax rates) and can allow rebates and incentives to be discretely diverted away. It presumes both parties know every relevant fact without first requiring full disclosure from either party. It can also require a good deal of reverse engineering to ultimately determine whether or not an offer that may not seem attractive should be, and one that may seem to be isn't.

Because taxes and regulatory fees are mandated and are usually dependent upon the agreed purchase price they're just not relevant to the negotiation and should be based upon, rather than combined with, the vehicle purchase itself.

Note: The 300A has experienced a mid-year price increase of $660 (from $20,780 to $21,440) that will cause most online pricing guides to be in error. Because the U.S. inventory is so large, virtually all vehicles available today were built before the price increase.

With that in mind, I'll rebuild the transaction from the bottom-up. (I welcome Ed jumping in to correct any misconceptions I may have or errors I may make).

Dealer invoice for Transit Connect is dirt simple. There's a 7% margin on the base vehicle and 17% on options (rounded down) plus a $400 local advertising fee Ford levies upon dealers and $695 to transport the vehicle from Otosan to Yourtown, USA.

That's the dealer's gross vehicle cost in a nutshell. Once the dealer sells the vehicle, it will receive 3% of the sticker price (excluding destination fees).

Beyond that is the dealer's holdback which, in addition to any manufacturer-to-dealer bonus cash or "marketing support" money Ford may be offering at any given time (which you may or may not know about, and which the dealer may choose to keep for itself or throw into the deal as an additional pricing incentive). The "holdback" rebated to each dealer upon selling each Transit Connect is 6% of the base vehicle cost (the gross cost less local advertising and destination fees). In this case, it's indeed $640.

Your vehicle's dealer invoice price is:

93% of Base Vehicle Price + Local Advertising Fee + Destination Charge = Dealer Invoice

or

$19,329 + $400 + 695 = $20,424

Because rebates and incentives are money the manufacturer contributes toward the down-payment, (they do NOT reduce the purchase price, must be verified in Smart VINCENT and can vary from person to person and location to location) and are usually taxable, they have no place among the contributors that constitute the purchase price.

Plugging-in the relevant factors to determine California DMV fees and Sales and Use Tax (using Aliso Viejo in Orange County as a hypothetical registration location), the total fees and taxes due came to $324 in registration fees and $1,787 in sales/use tax for a total of $2,111.

So, the net purchase price would come to $20,424 plus $2,111, or $22,535. Presuming you'd be entitled to receive a $500 rebate (and also that you're also not entitled to any further rebates or incentives), the "out the door" price would come to $22,035, a scant $3 difference from what you were offered, and close enough for me to wager I've nailed the numbers upon which they based their offer and any variance can be written-off to rounding.

Could you do better? Maybe. Just as Ford is seeking to preserve its margins, dealers have to be particularly long on Transit Connect and short on cash with payroll coming due to start kicking-in their holdback. Waiting until the end of the month may buy you a bit more negotiating leverage, especially as March is the end of the first quarter. Even so, the particular vehicle you want happens to be the cheapest Transit Connect possible which makes it a very readily-saleable vehicle and one that's likely to command a great deal of interests from other dealers who may search on behalf on their own customers. I suspect you would run a larger risk of losing the vehicle to another buyer, even at the relatively low sales rate, than negotiating an appreciably-better price.

It's also important to be pragmatic about the dealer itself. Dealers are fighting for survival. The marketplace is 40% smaller than 3 years ago and skyrocketing reliability has meant plummeting service revenues. While average transaction prices continue to rise in response to pent-up demand and a larger portion of buyers consisting of those who are well-qualified and sufficiently-financed, the simple fact is that too many dealers are fighting for too little business; and it's becoming the responsibility of each customer to ensure the deal he drives is sustainable in all respects as the new reality includes the very real potential of bargaining someone out of business altogether.

I don't know your circumstances, nor would I begrudge anyone the opportunity to keep food on his own table. But after weighing the available factors (at least those I could determine or reasonably estimate), including the likelihood of someone else buying that vehicle (especially as it seems to be a relatively rare combination, as I only found 1 within an hour's flight of L.A. so-configured), I would accept the dealer's offer as allowing it a reasonable margin to fund its operations and move forward, especially as the numbers seem to mean they were also straight with you in terms of reasonable documentation fees and so forth.

So, Ed.... How'd I do?

Edited March 12, 2010 by madlock

[jshelby861]

I know i am going to beat on for telling what i paid, but mine is an xlt with the rear seat and the stability system,etc. and i bought an extended warranty (prob will get a refund on the extended warranty it was 2500) and my total was 26k with the warranty and gap insurance (will be getting a refund for the 750 it cost also) i know i did not get a very good deal, but i really wanted one and love the thing now that i have it!, I wish i had know about this board before i bought mine, I would have loved to buy one from ED

[MINICooperS]

While you may not have been offered the best deal ever, the dealer's $22,038 price certainly wasn't unreasonable . . . . .

So, Ed....

Thanks for the in depth analysis. Seriously, I'll take it under consideration.

The unit I am most interested in is an XLT Van 310A with the 255 Rear Doors as the only option.

Let's just say I wanted the "best deal ever" like the one that would blow your hair back, could you work your numbers on the $23540 sticker which includes shipping? The kind of deal where Ford is taking part of the depreciation hit once it leaves the lot.

Ed???

Not to confuse the issue but the only "invoice" I have is for a completely different unit in an unacceptable color. It's numbers are as follows:

XL Cargo $18840.00 Invoice

Destination $695.00 Invoice (MSRP as well)

2 Gals Gas $4.58 Invoice (Invoice Only)

FDAF/LMDA Assess $440.00 (Invoice Only) Advertising Fee?

Total Invoice $19979.00

Holdback: $640

A&Z Plan: $19617

D Plan: $19717

X Plan: $20558

Total MSRP $20780.00 $21475.00 Incl Shipping

Edited March 13, 2010 by MINICooperS

[madlock]

Thanks for the in depth analysis. Seriously, I'll take it under consideration.

The unit I am most interested in is an XLT Van 310A with the 255 Rear Doors as the only option.

Let's just say I wanted the "best deal ever" like the one that would blow your hair back, could you work your numbers on the $23540 sticker which includes shipping? The kind of deal where Ford is taking part of the depreciation hit once it leaves the lot.

Ed???

A 310A w/ 255 Cargo Doors ONLY would sticker at $23,135 ($22,350+$190+695) with an invoice of $21,921. Was the $23540 based upon the online configurator? If so, it too may reflect a price increase in-stock vehicles won't have. Holdback is 3%.

I'm serious about hitting them at the end of the month, preferably about 15 minutes prior to closing with a check in-hand. Your negotiating man-bits cast a shadow 10x as big. But especially on minimally-configured vehicles that are so popular for the same reason you want one, dealers aren't worried about being stuck.

[madlock]

I know i am going to beat on for telling what i paid, but mine is an xlt with the rear seat and the stability system,etc. and i bought an extended warranty (prob will get a refund on the extended warranty it was 2500) and my total was 26k with the warranty and gap insurance (will be getting a refund for the 750 it cost also) i know i did not get a very good deal, but i really wanted one and love the thing now that i have it!, I wish i had know about this board before i bought mine, I would have loved to buy one from ED

Here's a nice little tip on the warranty. Visit www.fordwarrantys.com. It's a CT dealership that will be happy to sell you a warranty for your vehicle with price quotes in advance. Be sure to indicate you want their bonus pricing, it will save you another $180 or so.

You then have a couple of options. You can simply buy it from them (they only collect sales tax on CT sales... reporting to your own state is entirely your responsibility), or present the number as a "meet or beat" price to your own local dealer. It will cost you $75 plus whatever proration may apply, but given that I purchased an 84/100/0 deductible warranty for FAR less, I'm sure there's the opportunity for you to save more than a little money if you want the business. Heck, Ed should be referring him to his own F&I rep.

As for the "gap" insurance, it ALWAYS sounds SO good, doesn't it? And with a vehicle that seems to depreciate like a rock, it sounds even better. The downside is that it doesn't go away once you're no-longer upside down on the car like PMI can go away when you hit 20% equity in a mortgage.

I hope this can save you a shekel or two.

[MINICooperS]

A 310A w/ 255 Cargo Doors ONLY would sticker at $23,135 ($22,350+$190+695) with an invoice of $21,921. Was the $23540 based upon the online configurator? If so, it too may reflect a price increase in-stock vehicles won't have. Holdback is 3%.

I'm serious about hitting them at the end of the month, preferably about 15 minutes prior to closing with a check in-hand. Your negotiating man-bits cast a shadow 10x as big. But especially on minimally-configured vehicles that are so popular for the same reason you want one, dealers aren't worried about being stuck.

I have the "invoice" in hand as follows:

S6BG XLT CARGO $22655.00 MSRP $21091.00 INVOICE

ORDER CODE 310A

TY SILVER METALLIC

8K DARK GRAY CLOTH

99N 2.0L GAS ENGINE

442 4-SPD AUTO W/OD

66B RR CARGO DOOR ARMS 255 $190.00 MSRP $158.00 INVOICE

DELIVERY & DESTINATION $695.00 MSRP $695.00 INVOICE

FUEL CHARGE $40.95 INVOICE (this amount seems wrong)

FDAF/LMDA ASSESSMENT $330.00 INVOICE

SHIPPING WEIGHT 3284 LBS.

KEY CODES FE/FA

TOTAL: $23540.00 MSRP $22314.95 INVOICE

TOTAL HOLDBACK: $686.00

A&Z PLAN: $21573.95

D PLAN: $21673.95

X PLAN: $22500.69

INVOICE PREPARED: 012510

PRICE LEVEL: 055

TRANSIT DAYS: 01

So here we have it:

This XLT 310A with the 255 Cargo Doors as the only optiion for $25000 out-the-door with 0% 36 mo financing

Or:

An XL 300A with no options for $22000 out-the-door with 0% 36 mo financing

Edited March 13, 2010 by MINICooperS

[isellford]

Good Morning all. I had been out of town last week attending 2 trade shows and travelling all day Sunday. Saw a lot of new TC equipment and interiors. Yesterday was catch up in the office and selling another TC.

I am looking at a factory invocie for an XLT 110A package at the new price level. Anything shipped after the beginning of Jan will have the new price; we are not protected on orders for stock; only retail so even if we ordered in Nov or Dec, we would be invoiced at the new price as it would arrive after the Jan date.

My price level 055 Transit breaks down as follows: MSRP $23560 [ has 255 degree, reverse sensing, all WX mats, and splash guards].

Invoice is $22313.95 which includes $695 freight, $330 dealer advertising [varies by region], 40.95 fuel charge, and $15 MDA assessment. There is also $686 holdback which is 3% of the MSRP less freight rounded to next whole dollar [ 23560 - 695 = 22865 x 3% = 685.95]. That is it.

Holdback is used to pay interest charges as most dealers have to finance their vehicles. A normal commercial floor rate is 8% on invoice amount so it would cost a dealer approx $148.75 a month to have the unit in inventory [Ford does credit 45 days to dealer so if on lot over that, it starts eating the holdback]. Dealer also uses holdback for advertising, light bill, and other fixed expenses. Most dealers do not pay salespersons on holdback so if they sell at invoice, a salesman usually makes a flat pay of $100. The national average for a salesperson is 12 a month so if a salesman sells 12 units at invoice X $100, he would be below the poverty level. I doubt seriously if most people reading the boards would work for that. Salespersons are not real crazy about invoice deals but they will do it.

As we are looking at this 110A package, the total markup above invoice is 1245.05 which is not a whole heck of a lot to begin with.

So if you can buy a Transit Connect and the dealer is willing to discount it $1000 or so, then it is a fair deal for both parties. That leaves him with a little over $900 profit which is not unrealistic since he has taken the risk and has all of the expenses involved in carrying the unit.

If anyone is thinking about a purchase down the road, join the American Quarter Horse Assn for the $30 or $40 that the annual dues are. Ford has been offering an ADDITIONAL $500 rebate to their members for as long as I can remember. This can be combined with the standard rebate or the financing. You have to be a member for at least 60 days before being eligible. I joined a year or so ago and have used it on 2 vehicles.

ALso if you are a bonafide business, you can receive an additional $375 if the TC had a ship thru rack/bin installed OR an additional $200 if you spend at least $200 on aftermarket work related items such as ladder racks, interior racks/bulkhead or graphics. Dealer needa a copy of a paid invoice from the company that does the upfit showing what was done and how much was spent.

It is tough comparing "Out The Door" deals as the tax title and other fees vary so much from state to state and there is nothing you can do to change them so just work your best deal on the vehicle that you are happy with and buy it. Most Transits ahave about the same markup so if you are getting at least $1000 off the Real MSRP [not a addendum MSRP with a bunch of dealer add ons - STAY AWAY FROM THEM] then buy the vehicle.

If you have any questions, contact me through my website.

Hope this helps.

[astra65]

Just hit 5000 on mine....no complaints other then excessive road and wind noise. I've noticed that much of the wind noise is coming from the passenger side window toward the front.

My biggest compliant right now is the rubber loom between the rear door and the main body. They are always getting pinched....eventually they will crack or the washer fluid will cease to flow. Did they fire the guys in quality control? or did they not have customer input on design as does Toyota?

We also own a 2006 Toyota Sienna van..LOVE IT...we really want the new 2011 Sienna van...talk about reading the minds of consumers. They have everything in there that makes sense to the average family. (sad to hear about the issues pertaining to Toyota, but I will still remain a loyal customer...75% of the vehicle is made here in America)

sorry to rant...but yes, I still enjoy and are happy with my TC.

JK

I've also had a 2004 Sienna which was an incredible workhorse and I ended up selling it with 170k on it. Never gave me any problems.

Just bought a TC which I think was the right choice. But... a used Sienna without the back seats has 150 cubic Ft of cargo room, same as the TC van. And it's just as gas efficient and much much more comfortable. So, although I love TC I could have saved a bundle with a used Sienna.